tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post114946871008059582..comments2023-10-25T12:49:50.074+01:00Comments on The Old Socialist Unity Blog - we have moved: The second open threadANhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149675152971028522006-06-07T11:12:00.000+01:002006-06-07T11:12:00.000+01:00Thanks AN. I agree absolutely agree with you!Yes, ...Thanks AN. I agree absolutely agree with you!<BR/><BR/>Yes, the bit what Jim said about the DNA did annoy and frustrate me a tad. <BR/><BR/>I too am please to meet people in the virtual world you remember and were engaged in these debates. It takes me back to my mid teens where unfortunately, Kylie, Jason and Bros ruled the charts!!!<BR/><BR/>Those weren't the days...Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149666459691302472006-06-07T08:47:00.000+01:002006-06-07T08:47:00.000+01:00dunno - they were unlistenably bad IMO, but I like...dunno - they were unlistenably bad IMO, but I liked them when I was 17. The only song I remember was "never been in a riot"ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149642257252777292006-06-07T02:04:00.000+01:002006-06-07T02:04:00.000+01:00Did they do "Solitary confinement" that was covere...Did they do "Solitary confinement" that was covered by the Newton Neurotics as "living with unemployment"?Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149636622917419962006-06-07T00:30:00.000+01:002006-06-07T00:30:00.000+01:00Well I cannot speak for Louise .. but I think I un...Well I cannot speak for Louise .. but I think I understand her point here.<BR/><BR/>In a moment of flippancy you suggested that the reaosn you were not welcome in a campaign that had decided to be autonomous women only was due to an accident of your DNA.<BR/><BR/>But that is a bit seeing it from the man's point of view, and not from the womens'. From the womens' point of view it is not about your biological manhood, but about the space for women to organise without any men being around, and therefore even though you personaly might be the loveliest person alive, being free from any possibility of gender power relations.<BR/><BR/>I wasn't being funny earlier when I suggested this was as surprising experience for men. I know you have heard the arguments, but not until you are excluded can you feel the rejection, and it isn't easy. I hope you don't think I am being patronising, I am speaking about how I felt from my own experience.<BR/><BR/>But this sense of being arbitrarily excluded is daily for women in many situations, cos of patronising or laddish attitudes,. I know you are a millionmiles from that yourslef, and probably better than me, but Louise does have a point.<BR/><BR/>There has been no where near enough discussion of this sort of stuff in the left in recent years (I blame Cliff (my new catch phrase)) - it is nice to meet Louise in virtual world, it takes me back to when i was young and these arguments were around all the time, blimey i will be listening to the Mekons next!ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149625268208189262006-06-06T21:21:00.000+01:002006-06-06T21:21:00.000+01:00I guess I'm a bit lost Louise as to why you seem f...I guess I'm a bit lost Louise as to why you seem frustrated with me. I've already said i do not oppose the fact that this was a women's only space and that I respected that decision.<BR/><BR/>I made a post earlier in this thread in favour of a method that allows for and encourages autonomy specifically to contribute to this debate.<BR/><BR/><I>Can't you just listen to what women want and support those demands?</I><BR/><BR/>Um... but that's what I'm doing. I didn't want to take decisions for the group or hold a position or anything like that I wanted to give active and enthusiastic support, but didn't feel it was posible for me to be active in that support in the context of the group.Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149618281249296102006-06-06T19:24:00.000+01:002006-06-06T19:24:00.000+01:00just quickly as I have to shhot out to stop the wa...just quickly as I have to shhot out to stop the war meeting.<BR/><BR/>I agree with you Louise, unfortunetely the tide seems to have turned on this issue, and arguments that a few years ago were self evident to many have now become contested again.ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149614962460644042006-06-06T18:29:00.000+01:002006-06-06T18:29:00.000+01:00Sorry Jim,I am unclear what you mean. It is not a ...Sorry Jim,<BR/><BR/>I am unclear what you mean. It is not a case of your DNA. It is a case of power relationships which exist in this society and the fact that there are times when women have the right to self-organise.<BR/><BR/>If you want to show something, show support and solidarity to women and let women make the decisions. <BR/><BR/>Can't you just listen to what women want and support those demands?<BR/><BR/>I have to say that this makes me angry, upset and but also frustrated as these arguments for autonomy should be obvious to socialists and having to constantly to defend this position.Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149614358956454822006-06-06T18:19:00.000+01:002006-06-06T18:19:00.000+01:00AN,Firstly, I am tired of having to keep explainin...AN,<BR/>Firstly, I am tired of having to keep explaining the importance of women only spaces. It is not such an outlandish idea! One area of women only activity is in the student movement (women's group).<BR/><BR/>I think it is important for Jim, for instance, is to think about why some women wanted a women-only space. It is not an attack on men, far from it.<BR/><BR/>From the first meeting the for and against women were polarised between the revo left and the non-aligned. The SWP didn't seem to really push for their position i.e. including men. They seemed very half hearted about the whole project (Respect?). If the CPGB had put the issue to the vote then the revo left would have won but they didn't instead various women (including Terry C.) agreed to discuss it at the next meeting. What was there to discuss? I actually believe the overall decision was for opportunistic reasons such getting the "line" from their respective orgs.<BR/><BR/>I remember sitting next to a young woman and while I was discussing the debate with another union activist (she was also for it to be women-only), the woman next to me who was quiet during the meeting all of a sudden became animated. She turned to me and said she agreed with me about what I said and she worried about men taking over the proceedings of the meeting. Ask yourself, why did this woman think this? She was not a aligned to any group but she felt strongly in defending abortion rights. <BR/><BR/>Many of the women who supported a women-only group didn't come back. Many of them seemed so demoralised by a debate which is so simple and straightforward. I frankly couldn't believe the constant "Groundhog Day" arguments.<BR/><BR/>To answer the question: yes, half of the women in the room supported a women-only space but the revo left could have won the debate had they pushed it but chose not to. I was unimpressed by it all and the meetings ended up a revo left talking shop (union activists, feminists and other lefties pissed off) It was just me, 2 feminists and the revo left. Fun....!Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149613518294766592006-06-06T18:05:00.000+01:002006-06-06T18:05:00.000+01:00Louise, I should make clear I don't object to the ...Louise, I should make clear I don't object to the group being women only, or women only led - the difficulty I personally had (which may or may not be important, it's hard for me to judge) was because me getting involved would have been contested ground for the group and I felt obliged to stay out the way until the issue was resolved, not wanting to contribute to internal group conflicts. <BR/><BR/>And of course not wanting to put myself in a position where people I agree with don't want to work with me purely on the basis of the DNA I was born with.<BR/><BR/>BTW andy i was not surprised by the idea and i'm aquainted with the arguments i was just describing the effect it had on my own involvement.Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149611902349553532006-06-06T17:38:00.000+01:002006-06-06T17:38:00.000+01:00I think for many men the first time they find them...I think for many men the first time they find themselves excluded from a meeting or campaign it can be a bit suprising - and I think it is a measure of how so much weaker the womens' movement has become that Jim had not encountered it before this abortion campaign, and also that within the campaign the revo groups were permitted to make such a song and dance about it.<BR/><BR/>How much support was there for your position of a women only group Louise?ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149608264985137512006-06-06T16:37:00.000+01:002006-06-06T16:37:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149608218386551852006-06-06T16:36:00.000+01:002006-06-06T16:36:00.000+01:00Jim,The Abortion Rights umbrella group fizzled out...Jim,<BR/><BR/>The Abortion Rights umbrella group fizzled out unfortunately. The problem was that too much was made out of the fact re: it being women-only. I was involved in FAB (Fight Alton Bill 87/88) and the group I was active in was women-only BUT that didn't detract from men getting involved in the wider struggle such as attending demos, pickets and lobbies of parliament. SWP women and other revo women (including myself at the time)had no argument with it being women-only. <BR/><BR/>It is important that women take control and make the decisions. Autonomous spaces are extremely important and men were not sidelined. They were encouraged to show solidarity and to take a bit of a back seat. What is wrong with that?<BR/><BR/>The group diminished in size as women got demoralised from the constant carping from the CPGB, Workers Power and so on (the arguments came from the revo left and not from non-aligned lefties or feminists). We, therefore, were so bogged down in this question that the ongoing strategy was lost.<BR/><BR/>If you felt unwelcome, Jim. How do you feel women, like myself, who was constantly accused of being a separatist felt? <BR/><BR/>The other problem with the group was that there was nothing specific to campaign around i.e. nor EDM or potential Bill. The issue around Sue Axon was ongoing at the time and thankfully she lost. <BR/><BR/>I still believe that women should lead the fight with men showing solidarity. And that means women being forefront of the decision making and if that means it being women-only then so be it.<BR/><BR/>BTW: AN. A Buffy Fan. Good to hear it!Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149605331127525362006-06-06T15:48:00.000+01:002006-06-06T15:48:00.000+01:00The thought's terrifying!The thought's terrifying!Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149601803421500592006-06-06T14:50:00.000+01:002006-06-06T14:50:00.000+01:00Or rather it is only not a good idea for political...Or rather it is only not a good idea for political reasons, what you war in your bedroom is up to you (excpet that i learn over at StroppyBlog that we are both aspects of a multiple personality disorder, or maybe like Glory in series five of Buffy, I change into you without knowing?)ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149601487315807652006-06-06T14:44:00.001+01:002006-06-06T14:44:00.001+01:00That was a joke BTW - i don't think that would rea...That was a joke BTW - i don't think that would really be a good idea.<BR/><BR/>But it remonds me of my favorite Joke:<BR/><BR/>Q: How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?<BR/>A: One, and it isn't funny.ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149601481739066892006-06-06T14:44:00.000+01:002006-06-06T14:44:00.000+01:00only in the privacy of my bed room...only in the privacy of my bed room...Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149601192325425172006-06-06T14:39:00.000+01:002006-06-06T14:39:00.000+01:00Jim, Perhaps you should have pretended to be a wom...Jim, Perhaps you should have pretended to be a woman like Elaine Harrison?ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149601065769672522006-06-06T14:37:00.000+01:002006-06-06T14:37:00.000+01:00I found that whole debate pretty off putting to be...I found that whole debate pretty off putting to be honest. I was deeply worried about the moves by the right to erode abortion rights and really wanted to get involved and essentially ended up doing nothing about it because I wasn't welcome.<BR/><BR/>I spent hours trying to get a woman on the left to write about it and eventually Terry Conway did, but the whole process was pretty dispiriting for me.Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149600311780081232006-06-06T14:25:00.000+01:002006-06-06T14:25:00.000+01:00"and for example the theoretical journal - the ISJ..."and for example the theoretical journal - the ISJ - seems to just repeat the orthodoxies without developing thought in any new direction."<BR/><BR/>You can say that again. I've stopped reading it for that very reason. You know exactly what the argument of each article is going to be and how it's going to proceed from the title alone.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11986710256832859804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149600191441463032006-06-06T14:23:00.000+01:002006-06-06T14:23:00.000+01:00And yeah, Mark Fischer was mainly slagging me off ...And yeah, Mark Fischer was mainly slagging me off as feminists like me are "bourgeois" and "anti-working class"(and sometimes under his false name, "Elaine Harrison")<BR/><BR/>And even better, he argued that feminism is a form of sectional politics (comparing feminism to the Bund)<BR/><BR/>Will look out for the Odent bk.Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149597636527641582006-06-06T13:40:00.000+01:002006-06-06T13:40:00.000+01:00Ah yeah I remember reading about it in Weekly Work...Ah yeah I remember reading about it in Weekly Worker. Mark Fischer wrote an incredibly long and unreadable article about it.<BR/><BR/>His argument was typical of the mind-set, that oppression of women simply derives from capitalism, and there is a one size fits all solution - socialist revolution!<BR/><BR/>I think John Molneux was making a very perceptive distinction by arguing within the SWP that autonomy was necessary becuase working class men benefit from the oppression of women, because that both explains the need for autonomous organisation, and at the same time reveals that the systems of oppression and domination are not purely derived from the class dynamic of capitalism, or the capitalist mode of production/reproduction.<BR/><BR/>As an additional tuppence worth, I would recommend Michel Odent's book "Scientification of Love", which addresses the issue of how the traditional role of women in reproduction has been objectified in industrial societies. It is not a "political" book, but very useful in showing how enlightenment rationalism has forced a rupture with our animal needs, and that nurturing stuff like breast feeding, cuddling, etc are essential to happiness.ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149594760646098482006-06-06T12:52:00.000+01:002006-06-06T12:52:00.000+01:00I agree with pretty much of what you say but I wou...I agree with pretty much of what you say but I would just chuck something else about autonomy/separatism.<BR/><BR/>There were arguments in the umbrella group (around 18mths ago) of the org. Abortion Rights by some of us (me included) who wanted to make the group women-only. <BR/><BR/>The group had been set up as there'd been threats of attacks on time limits. Instead of discussing our strategy we were bogged on whether this group should be women only. <BR/><BR/>My arguments for it to remain women only was because it was good for women to make the decisions and to be in control of the group. If there were pickets, demos and/or lobbies of parliament then men would be involved (i am not a separatist). <BR/><BR/>The various women from the revo left SWP, Workers Power and the dreaded CPGB all argued for the inclusion of men. <BR/><BR/>Supporters of the autonomous space argument were condemned as separatists. I was worried, as well, that if men were part of the decision making they would take it over. Also, men can support a woman's right to choose but ultimately it's women who go through it.<BR/><BR/>Many of the women, I think, stopped turning up to the meetings as they were fed-up with the debate about including men. The revo left couldn't leave it alone and support women's autonomy.<BR/><BR/>Sorry again for the long post. <BR/><BR/>Oh and of course we have to challenge women's oppression in the labour movement.Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149593124858088402006-06-06T12:25:00.000+01:002006-06-06T12:25:00.000+01:00In reply to Louise's question: Does Feminism help ...In reply to Louise's question: Does Feminism help the fight against capitalism?<BR/><BR/>If by feminism we mean the full equality of women and men without waiting for the glorious day then I suppose one question is whether we really care whether under capitalism there are women priests (or perhaps women Rabbis and Imams in the future?), or women pilots in B52s, or women prison guards at Guantanamo.<BR/><BR/>Another question is whether gender inequality within the labour movement is an obstacle to achieving socialism or not.<BR/><BR/>On the first question, the exclusion of women from top jobs is actually an irrational aberration from the point of view of the ideology of capitalism, which in its purest form promotes the idea of legal equality. I don’t think it was a “good thing” that Thatcher was prime minister, but on the other hand it did demolish the idea that there are some jobs too responsible for a woman to do, and that is empowering for every woman, at the same time that thatch pursued many policies that were detrimental to women, especially working class women.<BR/><BR/>Not only should we oppose all forms of racism and sexism in their own right, but the nearer capitalist society becomes to the ideal legal equality, then the more stark remains the contradiction of economic inequality. So in that sense feminism does help the fight against capitalism.<BR/><BR/>On the second question, I still do believe that working class men benefit from the oppression of working class women, at the same time that they share many common interests as well. This is specifically in the area of unpaid domestic labour and child care, but also in terms of pay, work advancement, social status, etc. Yes the benefits gained by working class men through the oppression of women are in contradiction to their class interests, but hey contradictions happen, and it is fair to say that most working class people in Britain today are not pinning ALL their hopes on the socialist revolution.<BR/><BR/>To overcome that, and to overcome the degraded self-confidence that many working class women experience requires autonomous womens’ organisation. It also requires the labour movement to enforce it – how many times do “important” male comrades go to meetings and events, while the less politically experienced woman partner stays at home with the children. Why is she less experienced? Cos’ she is at home looking after the children. <BR/><BR/>Can we overthrow capitalism without challenging gender equality in the labour movement. I don’t know – but I don’t think the women should let us try!ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149580690045138142006-06-06T08:58:00.000+01:002006-06-06T08:58:00.000+01:00Thanks for the kind words Sappho. Are you involved...Thanks for the kind words Sappho. Are you involved with any campaigns or political groups in the US?ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1149539839741976222006-06-05T21:37:00.000+01:002006-06-05T21:37:00.000+01:00I know, I know, yes, comrade I ought to be writing...I know, I know, yes, comrade I ought to be writing the damn thing. You caught me out (are you trying to get rid of me?)<BR/><BR/>Seriously, it does sum the SWP when you say that there are thoughtful and critical members of the SWP who talk a lot of sense privately. Privately being the operative word. And to me, that's a sad state of affairs.<BR/><BR/>Before you ask, I am reading some fine articles for my essay while waiting for ER to start.Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.com