tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post117149586357184559..comments2023-10-25T12:49:50.074+01:00Comments on The Old Socialist Unity Blog - we have moved: Why Socialists should be in the Labour Party.....ANhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171967410955866942007-02-20T10:30:00.000+00:002007-02-20T10:30:00.000+00:00L - can you name one significant LP policy that ha...L - can you name one significant LP policy that has come from the unions in the Blair era that originated with the unions and has gone further than centre-right governments in Europe have offered?<BR/><BR/>I don't need to read up on the politics of entirsm, beacsue they are predicated on the out-dated analysis of the LP, and a no longer valid evaluation of the rlationship between the LP and the TU activist base, etc.<BR/><BR/>And on your final point, we can agree there isn't a viable alternative in England right now!<BR/><BR/>So I am not arguing you should leave the LP, but I am far from convinced by your arguments that we should join!!!<BR/><BR/>Anyway, well done for aprking a very healthy debate on this ;o)ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171964519455984792007-02-20T09:41:00.000+00:002007-02-20T09:41:00.000+00:00OK...One more time with feeling....WHY it is the b...OK...One more time with feeling....<BR/><BR/>WHY it is the best place to confront New Labour: The LP does express some political pressures from the TU movement though the bureaucracy will blunt them.. It is precisely the bureaucracy blunting these demands. New labour wants to mix neo-liberalism and to placate the demands of the working class. And that's why you need to be in the LP as well as the TU movement in order to challenge and confront it.<BR/><BR/>Btw: AN- read up on the politics of entryism.<BR/><BR/>The LP has dramatically changed but that is all part and parcel of the contradictions and it still has that link with the labour movement. I have no illusions with the LP BUT it is still the best place to confront labourism and reformism.<BR/><BR/>AN (well, actually none of the comrades who have commented) have given me a viable alternative just work in my TU or single-issue campaigns (which I do anyway....)Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171928861590645992007-02-19T23:47:00.000+00:002007-02-19T23:47:00.000+00:00I have re-read it all, nd i am still none the wise...I have re-read it all, nd i am still none the wiser, but perhaps i cannot see the wood for the trees.<BR/><BR/>You say you recognise that the left are not going to take over the LP, so do you think you are pulling it a little bit to the left? Or are you gathering people around you waiting for something better to come along, and then split or what?<BR/><BR/>YOu see, I do understand and to a certain degree sympathise with the CPB's position on the LP, recognising its hostorical position, and thereofre the left cannot come to power wiithout relating to it. However, the CPB are coming close to recognising that the LP has changed irrevecobly.<BR/><BR/>If the LP cannot be taken over by the left, then is it just a vehicle for promoting a few lefties into office ?(in fact Millbank won't let that happen , see the block on Mark Seddon's selection)<BR/><BR/>And you still haven't explained WHY it is the best place to confront new labour!<BR/><BR/>ARen't trhe unions a better place?ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171925098487509912007-02-19T22:44:00.000+00:002007-02-19T22:44:00.000+00:00AN: "What you haven't answred is what is the strat...AN: "What you haven't answred is what is the strategic goal of being in the LP? All the things you say you can do in the LP, well you can do them outside as well! So there is no added value of LP membership".<BR/><BR/>I have explained the strategic goal you just haven't read it properly! <BR/><BR/>There is an added value being in the LP as it is the best place to confront labourism and the labourism of the TU movement....<BR/><BR/>"IMO - the whole thing is a futile exercise, because the leaft is so so so weak in the party. You might get away with things just beacsue you are so ineffectual Millbank don't know you are there and aren't worth expelling!"<BR/><BR/>Well, I will just carry on confronting the reactionary elements in the labour party and the trade unions and I won't stop doing it. <BR/><BR/>Well hey, I suppose some comrades are just too politically pure to sully themselves with the labour party.<BR/><BR/>Btw: there is a superficial comparison between the LP and SF and that's about it!Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171923474017370972007-02-19T22:17:00.000+00:002007-02-19T22:17:00.000+00:00Loiuse, ww were better off becasue we were in the ...Loiuse, ww were better off becasue we were in the anti-fascist campaign as an explicit socialist grouping, and were able to relate to the TU activist on that basis, instead of being lumbered with an identification with the neo-liberal party that is promoting a pro-privatisation, deregulation agenda.<BR/><BR/>Your argument doesn't hold water because there is considerable disjuncture between the LP and the layer of TU activists, and an even greater disjuncuture between the LP and social movement activists.<BR/><BR/>Of course there are LP activists working against fascism, or for various progressive campaigns, but that is against the overwhelming tide of history in the LP.<BR/><BR/>What you haven't answred is what is the strategic goal of being in the LP? All the things you say you can do in the LP, well you can do them outside as well! So there is no added value of LP membership.<BR/><BR/>BTW - whatever the differences between SF and LP, the situations are analogous for the comparison to be intersting and useful - as regareds the gulf between the historical progressive electoral base, and the hollowed out structire today.<BR/><BR/>And regarding the leflets in elections. Ok - in the LP you could break the rules. So enlighten me - in your CLP how many left candidates have been selected, and produced leaflets outside the party's control? How many do you know of in other parts of the country?<BR/><BR/>You say you haven't been expelled, but what have you done to warrant expulsion ;o)<BR/><BR/>IMO - the whole thing is a futile exercise, because the leaft is so so so weak in the party. You might get away with things just beacsue you are so ineffectual Millbank don't know you are there and aren't worth expelling! :o)ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171919706332997732007-02-19T21:15:00.000+00:002007-02-19T21:15:00.000+00:00AN:"being in the LP would have welaned our impact ...AN:"being in the LP would have welaned our impact in the anti-facist camppaign not strengthened it". <BR/><BR/>Why would it weaken it? <BR/><BR/>Many labour party activists (including myself) are involved in (past and present) in campaigning against the BNP. Plenty of LP activists are fighting against fascism so don't dismiss us!Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171919372414386942007-02-19T21:09:00.000+00:002007-02-19T21:09:00.000+00:00Pinkie: What you need to do is step back and analy...Pinkie: What you need to do is step back and analyse. SF was never a reformist party it is a radicalised nationalist grouping. The LP is a social democratic party in an imperialist country so therefore it has completely different pressures and different dynamics. <BR/><BR/>Therefore you cannot substitute LP for SF (you can have a long lecture if you want about the differences...)<BR/><BR/>You also have to collectivise as much as you can. Why don't you join and get involved with something like Labour Briefing or Labour against the War.Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171919087031299162007-02-19T21:04:00.000+00:002007-02-19T21:04:00.000+00:00I comptlety agree with you Pinkieeven last year wh...I comptlety agree with you Pinkie<BR/><BR/>even last year when the BNP stood against labour in one ward here, they could only get councillors (on the payroll!) out canvassing.<BR/><BR/>Whereas loads of trade unioon activists came out to leaflet with our Serchlight inspired "Swindon Together SAgainst fascism" leaflets, those samem activist were not out working for Labour.<BR/><BR/>Indeed we also had a socialist candidate i the ward, and on that basis the uniona ctivists the LP councillors and us all had to sit down together - being in the LP would have welaned our impact in the anti-facist camppaign not strengthened it.ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171917485764952532007-02-19T20:38:00.000+00:002007-02-19T20:38:00.000+00:00I think Splinteredsunrise summed things up very ni...I think Splinteredsunrise summed things up very nicely:<BR/><BR/>"Actually joining SF would militate against that (<I>the historic party base - my note</I>) because here SF doesn't have an activist base any more, just an apparatus." <BR/><BR/>Substitute 'LP' for 'SF' and there you see the problem. <BR/><BR/>It's bad enough being in a Fouth International of one member. Fucking impossible to be a Fourth Internationalist entrist in the Labour Party of one member - not round my parts. <BR/><BR/>If comrades find that they can work in their local LP, great. Unfortunately in my area we have plenty of structure and no activist base (of whatever stripe).<BR/><BR/>Indeed: "Entryism is a hostile act remember and frankly it is about breaking people with reformism and labourism." <BR/><BR/>I'm just not convinced that there <I>is</I> a reformist etc base to be broken in my local LP - just a structure. That's the difficult bit.<BR/><BR/>I suspect my negative views of Labour Party work could be adapted for use against, oh I don't know'Respect', say.<BR/><BR/>If I were to re-join Labour I would need a lot of help.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171912983097642292007-02-19T19:23:00.000+00:002007-02-19T19:23:00.000+00:00AN: "In that way LP membership would be an imperdi...AN: "In that way LP membership would be an imperdiment, becasue you wouldn't be ermitted to produce election leaflets based upon socialist politics". <BR/><BR/>Have you heard of breaking the rules? Just because you wouldn't be permitted doesn't mean you can't challenge it..... That's the whole point you challenge them.I have and haven't been expelled as yet!! Well, just cos you are told you "wouldn't be permitted to produce election leaflets" doesn't mean you shrug your shoulders and capituate, is it?<BR/><BR/>And what ground breaking numbers are voting for Socialist Unity in your area? Seriously, you are not persuading to leave if that's all you can argue for. I have no loyalty or illusions in the LP but I believe it is the place to be challenge and confront New Labour. How the hell are you doing it outside? How do you confront labourism? If there was a group confront labourism outside the LP then I would join, but alas there isn't. I am revolted by the politics of New Labour but you still have to confront these politics and expose the contradictions of the LP.<BR/><BR/>I think the comparisons between LP and Sinn Fein are spurious because the dynamics are completely different because Sinn Fein, once upon a time was a radicalised anti-imperialist party (though they have thoroughly sold out over the peace process). While the LP in terms of its relationship to the state is pro-imperialist and we therefore confront these politics. I am not in the LP to show solidarity with the Bliarites but to confront them. Entryism is a hostile act remember and frankly it is about breaking people with reformism and labourism.Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171910752861468642007-02-19T18:45:00.000+00:002007-02-19T18:45:00.000+00:00It is an astute comparison SplinSunrise, beacsue i...It is an astute comparison SplinSunrise, beacsue it locates the argument in what we are trying to acheive.<BR/><BR/>Putting to one side such questions as the union link and armed struggle (minor differeences !!!) between the LP and SF. There is a question of a histroically progressiive electoral base, and a politica,l party that no longer articlulates the intersts or views of that base.<BR/><BR/>Standing as a socialist alliance ot socialist unity electoral candidate over the last few years has been a very educative experience for me. <BR/><BR/>Firtsly the LP's core traditional vote is elderly, and largely not voting for Blair but for Clement Attlee and Harold Wilson! These people cannot easily be engaged with, and are to be frank dradually dieing out.<BR/><BR/>The more improtnat group of Labour Voiters are the slightly younger labour supporters, in their mid thirties to late fifties, and it has been easier to relate to them on the basis of socialist polices outsode the LP than within it. In fact one of the thngs that has had a qualified impact on the LP's membership in our town, is that our leaflets sit in the historical tradition of the LP, and theirs don't!<BR/><BR/>In that way LP membership would be an imperdiment, becasue you wouldn't be ermitted to produce election leaflets based upon socialist politics.ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171898949000351052007-02-19T15:29:00.000+00:002007-02-19T15:29:00.000+00:00I know the Irish situation isn't directly comparab...I know the Irish situation isn't directly comparable, but - any radical in Belfast worth her salt needs to have some orientation to what was the historic Sinn Fein base. Actually joining SF would militate against that because here SF doesn't have an activist base any more, just an apparatus. At cumann level the party is dead. Not to mention that the socialists who joined SF en masse in 1982 (when SF was a lot more radical) not only did not transform the party, they were themselves transformed.<BR/><BR/>Dublin is somewhat different, but even there you can have a more serious approach to SF activists without joining what is essentially a totalitarian party operating military discipline.splinteredsunrisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11512033657370443477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171896304772953542007-02-19T14:45:00.000+00:002007-02-19T14:45:00.000+00:00AN and all the other comrades who oppose me: Peopl...AN and all the other comrades who oppose me: People need to build a collective challenge to Bliarism and New Labour...yes an individual would expect to acheive zilch. <BR/><BR/>A good start would be to involve yourself in Labour Left Briefing, Labour Against the War and so on. Basic examples really.....Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171896011608279532007-02-19T14:40:00.000+00:002007-02-19T14:40:00.000+00:00AN: Please read my arguments again, carefully, com...AN: Please read my arguments again, carefully, comrade, as I think I have explained why I am in the LP and why socialists should be there as well. <BR/><BR/>You have failed to convince me WHY I shouldn't be in the LP. All you came up with is single issue campaigns and being a member of the LP doesn't counterpose me being involved in those kind of campaigns whether it is anti-war (Labour against the War), Palestine solidarity, T&G work (includes John4Leader campaigning) and feminist activity. <BR/><BR/>You have to better than that to convince to leave the LP...<BR/><BR/>Btw: your point didn't sound snippy in the least.Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171895029841402542007-02-19T14:23:00.000+00:002007-02-19T14:23:00.000+00:00oh sorry - that last post sounded snippier than I ...oh sorry - that last post sounded snippier than I intended! and everyoine had been so polite until me!<BR/><BR/>I suppose waht I am saying, is I need to hear some positive experiences reproted as evidence.<BR/><BR/>Becasue everyone I speak to tells me their expeerience in thr LP is dire.<BR/><BR/>Even some Socialist Appeal comrades admit they are only card carrying LP members as they cannot achieve anything in their wards and CLPs!ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171894769576130132007-02-19T14:19:00.000+00:002007-02-19T14:19:00.000+00:00You totally fail to convince ne here Louise, becas...You totally fail to convince ne here Louise, becasue you haven't given s single copnvincing example of something I could personally acheive through LP membership that I cannot achieve without it.<BR/>And you keep saying thisngs like: "but it is still the case that the best place to challenge these politics is from within the LP and from within the Unions. "<BR/><BR/>Well yeah,l I agree about the unions, but as the unions are a good plpace to oppose LP policies, why do we need indivudual memebrship as well?<BR/><BR/>And you simply assert that individual LP membershio is the "best place" to challenge Balirism, wiothout explaining why it is even a plce that it is possible to do that, let alone the best one!ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171877074875029912007-02-19T09:24:00.000+00:002007-02-19T09:24:00.000+00:00But Pinkie it is not just at branch levels either....But Pinkie it is not just at branch levels either. The issue about campaigning at elections or just putting pressure on your Blairite pro-war clone of an MP. I live in an area which has a Tory MP BUT come next election the boundary will have changed and I will have a pro-war Blairite clone.....<BR/><BR/>The thing is that we put pressure on these individuals as much as possible. Nobody said it was easy either. But there are other possibilities, you can always canvass for a leftie MP/councillor (there are some still out there..)I have in the past.It just seems that people are making excuses about not organising within the LP....Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171844719921880492007-02-19T00:25:00.000+00:002007-02-19T00:25:00.000+00:00Louisefeminista:"Pinkie: Er, off the top of my hea...Louisefeminista:<BR/><BR/>"Pinkie: Er, off the top of my head you could involved yourself in Labour Against the War, Labour Left Briefing, Labour CND and trade union work which would involve putting political pressure on the Labour bureaucracy."<BR/><BR/>Fine, I have no doubt that there are socialists campaigning and in the ways you illustrate. But how does an ordinary member do this in an effective way in, say, a small branch with possibly frequently inquorate meetings? I am not convinced that the average Labour Party branch is a forum for political discussion,let alone effective political work (and I say this as an ex-member).<BR/><BR/>What I am convinced about is that active membership brings with it the requirement to campaign for the party at elections, local and national. Where I live that means campaigning for petty careerists whose politics are virtually indistinguishable from that of their oppositionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171820776702761152007-02-18T17:46:00.000+00:002007-02-18T17:46:00.000+00:00Anon: Why hide in the shadows? Have the courage of...Anon: Why hide in the shadows? Have the courage of your convictions at least....<BR/><BR/>So, you can be an aging activist but not a militant one. Rather patronising, don't you think? Try telling that to the activists (aging or not)at yesterday's meeting and see what response you'd get! <BR/><BR/>WC voters deseting the LP are not voting or going to rightwing parties...Tories or BNP. The Left as a whole and this includes the Left outside of the LP have failed to catch these people despite the huge opportunity presented few years ago by the anti war movement. Yes the situation is dire in the LP but is dire outside. The politics of the LP are repellant to anybody with a leftwing atom in their body but it is still the case that the best place to challenge these politics is from within the LP and from within the Unions.Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171814867281995812007-02-18T16:07:00.000+00:002007-02-18T16:07:00.000+00:00I suspect that most of the people at the Labour CN...I suspect that most of the people at the Labour CND meeting were aging activists rather than militant activists. Because the reality is that the Labour left is a rather small group of middle aged, demoralised social democrats. The various Labour Party connected fronts you mention are in reality moribund and are small numbers of grey haired white people meeting in small rooms rather than vibrant outward looking organisations.<BR/><BR/>The idea of socialists in the current period flocking to the Labour Party is bizarre, for one, if you truly fought for socialist politics in any effective way you would be expelled - as Militant were, as Galloway was. For the first time (and not only in Britain but across Europe) workers are breaking from Labour type parties and for the first time the Labour Party is not a pole of attraction for radicalised workers. Now in the late '60s, the trotskyist movement took off, partially due to disillusionment with the Pro-Vietnam war Wilson government - but that represented a small layer of people, now their is a widespread feeling among traditional Labour voters that this party no longer represents them. <BR/><BR/>Rather than trying to revive the corpse that is Labour, we should be seizing the opportunity that the collapse offers.<BR/><BR/>Louisefeminista still hasn't replied to the fact that for huge numbers of radicalised people the idea of joining Labour is an anathema<BR/><BR/>John McDonnell will be lucky to get enough signatures to stand for the leadership.<BR/><BR/>But there is also a more profound question, the Labour Left is a spent force.<BR/><BR/>For example, the vote in parliament on the Iraq Inquiry. Not even half of the Socialist Campaign Group voted for an inquiry into the Iraq War. Only 12 Labour MPs voted for an Iraq inquiry and several of them weren't even on the left. <BR/><BR/>The John McDonnell campaign, RESPECT, "campaign for a mass workers party", SSP/Solidarity, the Communist Party's "Left wing Programme" all in essence offer much the same programme.<BR/><BR/>But how many Labour MPs are there who support that programme? - I probably have more fingers on my right hand.<BR/><BR/>Accross the UK, left wing councillors have failed to be re-selected and replaced with Blairite candidates.<BR/><BR/>Also, in my experience, the Labour Left is deeply morally corrupt and where they have left wing positions they compartmentalise them. So they will come to anti-war meetings, but won't raise anti-war politics in their Labour Party branch. Indeed, I know of many people who were active in my Stop the War Coaliton group, are ex-IMG members, who have no qualms about canvassing for pro-war right wing Labour MPsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171814099965562512007-02-18T15:54:00.000+00:002007-02-18T15:54:00.000+00:00Another thing Dave, I have been to conferences and...Another thing Dave, <BR/>I have been to conferences and meetings connected to the Labour Left and people have spoken about re-joining the LP or people they know re-joining, probably for various reasons such as wanting to see a serious challenge to Gordon Brown. Yes, all this is anecdotal and it would be interesting how many people have re-joined/joined for the first time. <BR/><BR/>But the McDonell campaign could be the start of something new and re-energising. It could potentially kick-start the Left and not to be part of it (and not just part of TU either) is utterly foolhardy.Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171813177190458532007-02-18T15:39:00.000+00:002007-02-18T15:39:00.000+00:00Dave:"I've also just seen the new guest post on yo...Dave:"I've also just seen the new guest post on your blog and have to concede that there is another articulating the route you are now pursuing".<BR/><BR/>I am not part of the blog (Stroppyblog) anylonger. You refer to in your comment above re: the guest post. I am part of the Socialist Unity Blog now and also Union Futures.<BR/><BR/>I also answered Pinkie's comments about they can do in the LP.<BR/><BR/>I have no illusions in the LP but I still think that's the place to be to challenge the bureaucracy. I don't know what will happen but this is long-term work and we are in for the long haul.Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171810724737297402007-02-18T14:58:00.000+00:002007-02-18T14:58:00.000+00:00OK. I've said my fill. I guess we need to note my...OK. I've said my fill. I guess we need to note my very great distance. I am, of course extrapolating big time. I've also just seen the <A HREF="http://stroppyblog.blogspot.com/2007/02/guest-post-why-i-am-leaving-socialist.html" REL="nofollow">new guest post on your blog</A> and have to concede that there is another articulating the route you are now pursuing. But in closing my 'intervention' I note Pinkie's question: "Were I to join the Labour Party what could I actually do?" <BR/><BR/>I KNOW that you can be in the LP and NOT support the war et al. But I was talking in terms of politics not individual morality. I could just as well say that I can be a member of the Tories or the US Republican Party and not support the war. But there's no political point to saying that because these outfits don't have what I am supposed to want -- ergo:a formal link to the trade unions such that this one feature is supposed to excuse everything else and facilitate the sort of politics I do or want to do.<BR/><BR/>I don't say: don't join the British Labour Party -- I'm just a far off voice of caution thats' all. For all I know this leadership thing by whatsit could be the real thing. I dDO ALSO recognize the litany of failures that have created this impasse on the far left in England. I'm glad I'm NOT there politically, you see. But I do say that I have heard each and every one of these justifications in regard to social democracy ad infinitum for well over 30 years and I'm saying they all have hairs on them.<BR/><BR/>(Can I say that?)<BR/><BR/>I'll shut up now. I'll be reading your blog for updates.Dave Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05319742357589026156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171803899388783712007-02-18T13:04:00.000+00:002007-02-18T13:04:00.000+00:00"I think it is so terribly ironic, tactics aside, ..."I think it is so terribly ironic, tactics aside, that people will complain about any of these outfits' political indulgences and shibboleths and regimes, preferring instead to sign on with the party who created the Iraq war and help slaughter thousands".<BR/><BR/>Dave, you can be in the LP and not and I repeat not support war in Iraq, privatisation, neo-liberalism and so on. It is kinda insulting to the intelligence to think that socialists in the LP just go along with the "line". We don't!! Do you not think that many of us challenge and fight against the politics of New Labour. Yesterday at a meeting with Labour CND activists I witnessed so much anger at the plans of the Trident replacement. These militant activists would be appalled if you suggested that they went along with war in iraq. the challenge is still there and that's what we should be doing. <BR/><BR/>You miss the fundamental point I have been trying to make all along, entryism is a methood of challenging and confronting reformism, imperialism and neo-liberalism.Louisefeministahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279991897445225597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21995284.post-1171762154678472312007-02-18T01:29:00.000+00:002007-02-18T01:29:00.000+00:00I grant you the implantation issue re greens versu...I grant you the implantation issue re greens versus the far left --and it would be the same here and generally, I suggest, that has a lot to do with the failure of the 'left' -- the socialist left -- to impact on the greens and mark off a presence.(Here trade union activists who had signed on with the Greens have left like Andy's anecdote about one there who was planning to leave. Also here the greens have tried to set up a trade union grouping within the party but it has more or less floundered and doesn't function much.)But that doesn't mean that the greens are sentenced to be non union in orientation.You only have to consider the various left/green formations in Europe to comprehend that potential.<BR/><BR/>But then you also beg the other question and that is IF people are looking for a home why not join the SWP or the SP or Socialist Resistance? The key thing , if we can step back from our petty squables for the moment, is to orchestrate a force that has a considered regroupment agenda.Then go out and regroup. And, as I suggested earlier, I think SR is probably at the same impasse that Louisefeminista describes her own condition. <BR/><BR/>I think it is so terribly ironic, tactics aside, that people will complain about any of these outfits' political indulgences and shibboleths and regimes, preferring instead to sign on with the party who created the Iraq war and help slaughter thousands.<BR/><BR/>So you need a sense of proportion I suggest because no matter how you dress it up the LP with this trade union talk,the British Labor Party leadership is as criminal , and as imperialistic, as George W. Bush. Thats' true isn't it? Wasn't this the core attribute of the 2nd International come 1914 that so impressed Luxembourg, Lenin et al..? So you have to have a sense of a 'line in the sand' surely and work that one through.<BR/><BR/>I don't think that precludes an orientation, but I think you can't ignore it with all this shallow talk about "bourgeois WORKERS parties" as so potent that it excuses everything else. But it is fetishes like this that underpin the tactics of the far left so often: thats' how crude the thinking can be despite all its Marxian gloss.<BR/><BR/>Can't you see that?Dave Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05319742357589026156noreply@blogger.com